Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Mad Serge » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:13 am

Thank you, Taipan and seriz! Him wearing a broken ear phone was an interesting idea: was Miller "okay" with his wife's decision though?

The decision to cast Tom Hardy is indeed understandable. On the other hand, as you pointed out in one of your video, it does create a lot of inconsistencies...
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby seriz » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:36 pm

inconsistencies, yes and no... because the coherence of the timeline never really mattered. All this is stylised, and the purpose of those film is not the basic story in itself, it's the rythm of the myth, the sound of tales... somehting like this. We don't care how old is max and the fact max can't be an ex cop in fury road, it's a classic figure, a pure narrative hero.
When Miller say that he wanted a young max for this story, it wouldn't fit, anyway, with the initial trilogy. The trilogy is three mad max stories and they are one entity. Now, Fury Road is something else for the first reason that it's a product of 2010's, even if it was in germ since 1985 at least ! Some other connexions link fury road to thunderdome and road warrior, it creates, from my point of view a new trilogy in itself...
After, why search a purpose in some details when the author didn't care of them ?
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Mad Serge » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:56 pm

seriz wrote:inconsistencies, yes and no... because the coherence of the timeline never really mattered. All this is stylised, and the purpose of those film is not the basic story in itself, it's the rythm of the myth, the sound of tales... somehting like this. We don't care how old is max and the fact max can't be an ex cop in fury road, it's a classic figure, a pure narrative hero.

Except that it would have made sense if Max was played by Mel Gibson, as showed by Taipan: https://youtu.be/HU5wCx5pG88?t=871
If you say that then you cannot logically blame Uncle Entity for claiming whatever he wants. Miller is responsible for this inconsistencies that could have been easily avoid if he didn't pick a younger actor (yet the script remains basically unchanged). The comics, which were written with Mel Gibson in mind, also remained untouched.
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Taipan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:51 am

seriz wrote:inconsistencies, yes and no... because the coherence of the timeline never really mattered.


But it did! It's exactly because of this continuity that we got Fury Road as it is.

The entire story was about an old (and insane) Max on his final and most epic journey to redemption in the same way we got it in 2015.
Everything we see on screen is a consequence of the original trilogy, how crazy Max got, how advanced the apocalypse is, how Max got his car back, why people are fighting for water now, how people are dying - all this was the continuation of the degradation we saw in previous 3 movies.

To say that Fury Road is something completely different and out of the blue is just something I don't agree with. And frankly I don't even listen to Miller anymore because turns out - the further away from him you get to obtain information, the more people are open about all this. Ironically at the source - Miller himself - you'll never get him to admit he made a sequel and rebranded it into a reboot. But Brendan McCarthy who wrote the movie and was involved in production until... 2003 (I believe), he has no problem saying what they were working on. And I trust him over any wishy washy explanation that Fury Road is maybe a reimagining after Thunderdome soft reboot we don't know what it is :)
McCarthy said straight up: Look this is what we created, a sequel. All those years later he went on to watch it on screen and it's still the same sequel but now with Tom Hardy and a different ending, Miller now calls it a 'reboot'.
So what I'm saying is :
We can all agree that Fury Road now is a reboot with its own new timeline where Tom Hardy stars in all the movies, the dates are all out of whack and all that. That's what it is right now.

BUT!
To completely neglect the fact that this movie almost entirely derived from being a sequel is something I'll never agree with. All the 'mythology' and Miller's blurry explanations aside, this movie was created as a sequel in all of its aspects and it still largely is. And I'll fight anyone who thinks otherwise because evidently I've gone mad myself from talking about it for so long :)
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby seriz » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:54 am

If you say that then you cannot logically blame Uncle Entity for claiming whatever he wants. Miller is responsible for this inconsistencies that could have been easily avoid if he didn't pick a younger actor (yet the script remains basically unchanged)


Uncle Entity can claims what he wants. I mean, nobody tried to stop fans to create any theories they want ! :D

After Miller is of course responsible for this inconstencies. Why ? Because he doesn't care about them. That's not the point to create a coherent world.
It could be avoid if he didn't pick a younger actor ? Yes, maybe, but the fact that he didn't is a good clue about what he think about "consistency". He wanted to tell that story. He doens't want to create a franchise which will tell a bigger story like chapter one, the early years, chapter 2 2000's, chapter 3 2010's, chapter 4 2020's with a logic and coherent evolution of the society. That's not the point. So, if it's not the point, all the questions about that are irrelevant. It can be funny for "fan stories", even if I think it's looking the finger when the director shows the moon.

The entire story was about an old (and insane) Max on his final and most epic journey to redemption in the same way we got it in 2015.
Everything we see on screen is a consequence of the original trilogy, how crazy Max got, how advanced the apocalypse is, how Max got his car back, why people are fighting for water now, how people are dying - all this was the continuation of the degradation we saw in previous 3 movies.


But the story of Fury Road has no sense as a Mad Max 4. Because we don't have at the begining of Fury Road the Max we left at the end of Thunderdome. We have a Max, at the begining of Fury Road that is a stylization of the popular idea of the character : in leather, ex cop, totally upset and lonely, with a black car.

I may be wrong, but, the next chapter, after Thunderdome, would be a Mad Max with Max turned bad. A Max that finally bore the weight of responsability and finally took care of a group of people and turned tyran. Entity is the character Max would become if he followed to the Mad Max 2 Green Place. That's Miller's point of view.
But they didn't kill Max at the end of Thunderdome, they didn't let him flee with the children. So they maintain Max as a perpetual hero, and his stories are going to be told for ever. He's dead, but will live forever.
The other option would be the Unforgiven one, an old and wild Max. But Miller doesn"t want to do that. Why ? I would like to ask him that ! :D

McCarthy said straight up: Look this is what we created, a sequel. All those years later he went on to watch it on screen and it's still the same sequel but now with Tom Hardy and a different ending, Miller now calls it a 'reboot'.


Yes, of course. But Fury Road is not McCarthy's vision. Fury road must be seen as we see it on screen. Like Mad Max 1 is not the screenplay. Even if Fury Road was thought as a direct sequel of Thunderdome, it is not.

To completely neglect the fact that this movie almost entirely derived from being a sequel is something I'll never agree with. All the 'mythology' and Miller's blurry explanations aside, this movie was created as a sequel in all of its aspects and it still largely is. And I'll fight anyone who thinks otherwise because evidently I've gone mad myself from talking about it for so long :)


Sometimes it's an issue when you think about something muche more than the author himself ! :D
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Mad Serge » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:22 am

But the story of Fury Road has no sense as a Mad Max 4. Because we don't have at the begining of Fury Road the Max we left at the end of Thunderdome. We have a Max, at the begining of Fury Road that is a stylization of the popular idea of the character : in leather, ex cop, totally upset and lonely, with a black car.

Interestingly, you don't take the comics into account (just like Uncle Entity). Yet, thanks to the prequels, we know for sure that Mad Max Fury Road is indeed the sequel of Beyond Thunderdome.
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby seriz » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:26 am

Interestingly, you don't take the comics into account (just like Uncle Entity). Yet, thanks to the prequels, we know for sure that Mad Max Fury Road is indeed the sequel of Beyond Thunderdome.


because it doesn't make any sense. Max claiming is an ex cop doesn't make any sense. And because, one more time, those movies were not made to create the history, or the saga, of an universe. The universe is stylized. Taking those movies in first degree is reading the words and not understanding the story.
It's nice in fan stories, but we don't give a shit. Mad Max Fury Road as a sequel of Thunderdome, or as a standalone doesn"'t change anything.
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Mad Serge » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:38 am

Yes, you're closer to Uncle Entity than Taipan. Max used to be a cop. The prequels also explain who Glory is (you know, the little girl Max is hallucinating in Fury Road).

"Fan stories"? Let me check:

George Miller Story

Mark Sekton & Nico Lathouris Script

Mark Sekton Art

Michael Spicer Color

Clem Robins Letters

Sure, they don't know what they're doing. :roll:

By the way, here's an excerpt from the "introduction by Mark Sexton":

And so these four stories—prequels of some of the key characters of Fury Road—are finally realized. These are not just mere ephemera—not just cynically produced stories that have been hacked out to tie into a summer movie. These are legitimately authentic tales that were dreamed up by George during the production of the film and were told to the actors themselves—tales that gave the characters they played depth and history. The tales of Nux and Immortan Joe. How Furiosa came to meet the Wives. And Max, making his way through the twisted and poisoned wasteland. All stories that flesh out these richly layered and fascinating people, and how they came to be what they are at the beginning of Fury Road. Stories taken from the mind of George Miller... Given flesh by one of the co-writers of the Fury Road screenplay, Nico Lathouris, and myself. Illustrated and colored with enthusiasm and care by talented artists scattered over the globe. Every detail pored over and considered, altered and beaten into shape by the creators through the prism of years of immersion in the world of Mad Max. Stories that will give those folks who enjoyed the brilliant film a greater appreciation of the world and its history.
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby seriz » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:53 am

Sure, they don't know what they're doing. :roll:


;)

Miller: If you put a gun to my head, I’d say after Thunderdome, but it’s very loose. I can’t even work out the chronology of the first, second and third, let alone the fourth thirty years later.

What you don't want to understand is the mad max movies are stylized movies. It's not the History of the fall oh humanity. Nobody should give a shit about those timelines questions. It's not like Indiana Jones connected to real events. They make up what they want based on what is going to look cool. Nothing else.
After they make a comic book connecting the dots. Why not, but behind the exercice, you realize that it make no sense that a character who look like in his forties could be a cop in Fury Road's world ?

So yes Mark Sexton and Nico Lathouris made a comic book of the backstories they invented. They took many elements of the trilogy to imagine something else, a story, with all that connected. But, honestly, who give a shit about the story told by this comic book ? In which way it alters what Fury Road has to say ?
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Re: Observations about Max in the original trilogy and FR

Postby Taipan » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:35 am

Seriz,

The entire idea for Fury Road was coined by McCarthy, he wanted another Mad Max movie with Mel in it. Otherwise we'd get some crappy TV show:)

The pitch was about and Old Max, who went crazy from all the years in the Wasteland and was on the brink of suicide (Traveling to the Plains of Silence). He then meets Furiosa and the girls, falls in love with Furiosa goes to live with her in the Citadel.

Literally the idea was according to McCarthy:
"How long can he wander the wasteland? He's been out there in his old jacket and leather pants for 20 years? It's time for him to go home".
SO, most epic 'animal to human' transformation, most epic chase, and a happy ending, ending the entire series. All that written up until 1999, you've seen that picture with Miller and McCarthy next to an electroboard with the entire script drawn on it? That script is for the sequel and it's exactly what we got in 2015 too. Same thing minus Mel Gibson and the ending. Nothing special happened after McCarthy left, the script was just sitting there and they were doing the world building which resulted in stuff that was in the comic books, and extra scripts. There was no real 'switch' from sequel to reboot, just some attempts to re-fit it as a reboot.

And yeah you literally have to put a gun to Miller's head for him to admit that it's supposed to be after Thunderdome:) Not so much for McCarthy who doesn't feel that pressure to keep the franchise going, he did his job and left! And Miller saying he didn't work out the timeline himself - I call bullshit on that. So much time spent on figuring the tiniest details and not a word on why the world looks like that? Why Max has his car back? Why Max is so insane? You know even the tiniest characters in other Mad Max movies have backstories, if Miller doesn't come up with them, he'll ask the actors and then you get situations like with Vernon who has his own version of the story he was asked to come up with and Miller's that's slightly changed. Of course he thinks about those things! And the entire Fury Road was a result of that! It didn't come out of the blue as a standalone movie. After Tom entered the scene they used the 'mythology' angle to justify him being there.

That's the thing about Miller, he asks everyone around him to figure things out in extreme detail including himself, and when the movie comes out he blurs out the details so that the movies appear like 'myths'.

Simple example - the preamble to MM2 written by Terry Hayes. FULL OF DETAILS. Real world events altered for the purposes of the story. Names of countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia), a detail breakdown of what happened in the world.
Miller gets a hold of that - He turns it into a fable.

'Two mighty warrior tribes that went to war..."
Originally - it's Saudi Arabia and Iran.

"For reasons long forgotten"
Iranian revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeini reached Saudi Arabia

"Their world crumbled, the cities exploded...",
Originally - martial laws in Germany, Italy and Spain.

"The thundering machines sputtered and stopped"
Originally - the secretaries, clerks and managers were sent home, the supply of raw materials diminished, the forges and presses and furnaces stopped working.

Literally I'm talking about this amount of detail that Miller creates or asks to create, then uses it to create the movies and when it ends on screen it's all blurred vision, a myth, nobody remembers anything, some mighty warrior tribes, reasons long forgotten ... my ass.
Of course he does that because that's the appeal of those movies - it makes people wonder what happened and they discuss it to no end. While he's sitting there in the back probably laughing his ass off because he knows all of the details but when someone comes around he'll say he 'didn't quite figured it out'. And that is such major bullshit!
You know why? Because Miller knows how to tell stories. He is the man who knows that the less you reveal the more interesting a story becomes. It's even in the way he shoots, the 'implied violence' has much more effect than actual gore.
And 'implied backstory' works much better than a detailed backstory told on screen. But in order for that world to work on screen he needs to work out all the details first, have the entire world built from the ground up so that it makes logical sense. He does say that a lot too - that even though everything on screen looks batshit insane, it has to make logical sense, right? And the way it does make sense is because he traces it all back. From 40 years into the future to now. That's why those movies don't have crazy stuff in them that's just 'invented' but they do appear crazy. If those movies didn't have to make sense so much then what would stop Miller from putting crazy things in them for the hell of it? Sure why not, make Mad Max take place in 2458, give him lasers and robots and let's roll with that!
It's a 'myth' after all, right?
Does that approach sound familiar? That's because it's what all Mad Max knockoffs did :) They didn't other to do their homework, they didn't create those worlds properly. They only saw what's on the surface of Mad Max movies - crazy things, crazy action and vehicles, and they tried to replicate it. And they all failed miserably because they didn't bother to build those movies properly. I have the exact same complaint about people who claim that everything post-apocalyptic wasteland is just like Mad Max. If it was like Mad Max it would have to make actual logical sense, but instead they paint some cars black and put miniguns on the hood. That's not it. Miller knows this and in order to create this 'mythical' craziness he had to create a very realistic timeline for everything first. And then he goes "Let's not tell them any of this, give as little details as possible. The world is there and it works. Let their imagination do the work now".
And THAT APPROACH works. Well... most of the time. Remember how people were angry with Tom's accent in Fury Road? I think maybe Miller shoud've said that Max was so long out in the Wasteland that he literally forgot how to utter words.
Because that's where Max's 'funny accent' came from. Not because Hardy couldn't pull off the Australian accent. But again, they had it all written down, never revealed it! And in this case it backfired.

I bet he even told his writers not to reveal the details of the story and it took a lot of arm twisting to get some admission from Mark Sexton. Even he told me "hey man don't worry about those things it's just a movie". No you asshole, you have the whole detailed world built for this and now you're hiding it from us all haha (no offense to Mark if he's reading it, we're solid:). You went in so far as to write backstories for props for the movie and you're telling me there's no reason why Max has the Interceptor in the movie? Because that's the 'archetype'? They know why he has it, they know what happened between MMBT and Fury Road and I'll find out if it's the last thing I do :)
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