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Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:47 am
by AquaCola
Where did you get from my posts that anything I said was of my opinion or take on canon. Its George Miller's canon. The creator, writer, mastermind etc etc behind Max. I'm not sure how people can't understand that.

Mad Serge wrote:(I know that AquaCola doesn't care about the facts though).

You do understand that quoting George Miller who is the creator of Max would be the definition of fact. He has specifically said "this new Max has a new back story that he hopes to tell one day".

Again wether you want to believe it or not George has rebooted the series and was saying this up to two years before the the film was released which addresses all your concerns from your original post. If the Fury Road we got had Mel and was set after Thunderdome it would have been a mess for many reasons which you addressed in your opening post. George knowing this when asked in interviews back in 2013-2015 said its a new Max, thus rebooting the series.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:12 am
by Taipan
I don't see how Fury Road with Mel gibson aka Sequel to the original trilogy and also the last Mad Max movie would've been a mess.

For all intents and purposes Fury Road was built as the final chapter closing all of the Mad Max movies with Mel Gibson. His insanity progressed into hallucinations, paranoia, PTSD, you name it. The world around him is completely rid of resources except for the Citadel and the surrounding 'cities'. They're an exception rather than the rule so I would argue that the Wasteland somehow reverted back to the Road Warrior state of things. Step outside of the area surrounding the CItadel and there's absolutely nothing. The first encounter with the Buzzards shows what other vehicles are made of if they don't have proper resources - rusty cobbled together pieces of crap. The Green Place is now occupied by strange people who adapted to eating crows. The Vuvalini are very few, their guns are antique.

I completely understand that Miller inserted the Bullet Farm and the Gas Town and also the Citadel as an excuse to have a massive chase with weapons and explosions. It's a cop out that I'll let slide. But looking down at the feet of the Citadel you have a good example of what the wasteland really looks like - diseased, malnourished, dirty, essentially dying. Those are the people who've come there from afar. You gotta look at the bigger picture.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:49 am
by Mad Serge
AquaCola, George Miller was wrong about it. Like Taipan (who is more knowledgeable about the franchise than you) said:

Taipan wrote:when Miller said a year prior to FR's release that it's not set after Thunderdome, I don't even pay attention to that.

But you would have been right... Before the 8th of July... 2015! You're two years late. Fury Road isn't a reboot. Why? Because it is a sequel (with retroactive continuity). Here is the new timeline which is canon (at least for now): MM1 (with Hardy as Max), MM2 (with Hardy as Max), MMBT (with Hardy as Max), the comic series and, finally, Fury Road.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:27 pm
by Immortan Joecutter
Taipan wrote:I don't see how Fury Road with Mel gibson aka Sequel to the original trilogy and also the last Mad Max movie would've been a mess

sure, a Fury Road with Mel Gibson/aka sequel also would've worked in the exact way like the reboot-reimaging-revitalising-or whatever we got with Tom Hardy.

Honestly I'm not very interested in that matter to classify Fury Road if it's a sequel or a reboot.
Due to the simple fact that Max is portrayed by a different actor this time I personally decided to separate it from the original trilogy.

For me it's far more interesting how Miller can continue Max' story after Fury Road, in my opinion it was the perfect ending for Hardys Max
and in an alternate universe also a satisfying ending for Mels Max (basically nothing to do but breed with Furiosa :D )

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:19 am
by MWFV8
ITT: People who think canon is what you feel it should be and can't accept a single negative criticism of Fury Road.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:31 pm
by Copwatch
Honestly, while Taipan's detective work is astounding and constantly interesting, the idea of canon, with a series that's structured like this, is like the least important thing about it. Canon is literally what you feel it should be, and I think that's by design. Wondering about it is fun for speculation's sake, but (while they're different things entirely, for the most part) letting it ruin your individual impression of the work is like making a big deal out of whether or not the Zelda timeline makes sense.

As a fan, one of the things I love about these films is how different they are from each other while still retaining a core identity through style, technique and thematic focus. Max's struggles as a character are archetypal - while we see over the course of the series a man learning to be a human again, the details of his trauma don't matter so much as his efforts to overcome it.

Also, I believe that having the War Boys be presented as "heroes dying for the wrong cause" is explicitly the point, and has been an idea present in the series since at the very least the first film, when it asks us to view the MFP and Toecutter's gang as two sides of the same chaotic coin. Fury Road brings this element to the forefront, specifically through Nux and his evolution as a character, but its something that also owes it's presence to the relationship and tragedy of Wez and the Golden Youth, and Miller's wish to be able to retroactively flesh out Humongous' gang and a thousand other examples. It complicates the morality of the series in a very satisfying way for me.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:48 pm
by Taipan
I really don't....
What's there to argue?
It's simple:

Original trilogy has its own timeline.

Fury Road incorporated the original timeline and modified it to fit the rebooted narrative.

Both things exist simultaneously, none has more importance than the other.

What I will refuse to accept is this shallow concept of each movie being completely separate and a playground for your imagination to insert whatever theory you like. I know this is what Miller wants and it's what makes those movies interesting after all those years but - and I'm saying this for the 30th time - he created backstories for everything but didn't show them to anyone. Whatever he created is canonical no matter how you look at it because it thoroughly explains the world he created. So that we don't need to argue about whether Max is immortal from exposure to radiation like some Marvel superhero (because apparently that's the extent of imagination some internet chumps have these days).
Just from talking to actors a whole new perspective on the movies emerges. What if I told you that a totally minor character like Clunk in the 1st movie was actually a brain surgeon that hit his head and reverted back to a mind of a 4 year old? And that the Toecutter gang was babysitting him? And that his name came from the gang banging his head with metal objects against his head which made the 'clunk' sound because he had a metal plate installed in his head from the injury that made him retarded?
Because that's what Miller had come up with. And that's just a totally minor character that doesn't even have a line of dialogue in the movie.
If this doesn't show you the extent of storytelling that went into those movies then I don't know what will.

I've been sitting knee deep in finding out all this, to quote Roy Batty: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe".
Which is why I almost hate all kinds of headcanon or loose interpretations of the Mad Max movies. I hope one day I'll bring forward all of those things so that we don't need to treat Mad Max movies as totally open for interpretation, because honestly - the stories invented by Miller are far more interesting than any fan theory I've read.

Sorry if I went on a tangent.

Over and out.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:21 am
by MWFV8
I have to say, it does pain me to watch one person throw himself into in depth research and documentation of the facts while a few other people basically pull ideas out of their arses.

I make a lot of interpretations about the movies myself but would never consider my speculation more important than Taipan's fact finding.

I admire anybody's willingness to let their imagination run riot in response to watching these movies, and agree it's a wholesome activity to engage with, but to think that should be presented on the same platform, as any kind of debate over the intent, seems asinine to me.

There is a place for naval gazing and there is a place for information sharing. The two cross over far too much here as if somehow everyone's precious beliefs are as critical as the facts.

What's particularly frustrating, as Taipan alludes to, is that the real stories behind all this are just as fascinating, if not more so, than any individual's attempts at filling in the gaps anyway.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:56 am
by Taipan
Thanks MWFV8!

Right now Seriz is writing a book on the original trilogy and I'm helping with it just a little but once it comes out it should be the literal Mad Max Bible, an obligatory read for anyone who's a fan of those movies, it'll include a ton of backstories and such. I'm pretty sure it'll put things into perspective way better than I'm capable of. Then again I'm not expecting everyone to read this so best we can do is put the most important info out there, which is what I do with my videos.

Re: The new timeline ruined Max as a character.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:20 am
by Mad Serge
unfortunately, Taipan, you will never convince those who think that "everything is open to interpretation" because, at the end of the day, they will always see what they want to see. For example, I knew about the new timeline before watching your video. On the other hand, a guy like AquaCola, who needs to see it, will close his eyes and ears. I'm looking forward to seeing your new video (which will be about the video game, if I'm not mistaken).

Anyway, to be back on topic, here's an excerpt from an interview that Miller gave in 1985:

George Miller wrote:And Mel Gibson suddenly said to me in Mad Max 2, he said you know what he is? He’s a closet human being. And it really pretty well sums up Max for me. He’s someone who denies his humanity, and sometimes it’s going to come out, somehow. So I think he’s sort of a pretty sad figure from that point of view. And yet, you have a sense that he’s wise enough to learn. He finally learns, slowly, that you can’t live by yourself. You’re part of the community, like it or not. That we’re all sort of vaguely responsible for each other, and he sort of understands that. There are purposes outside of the individual’s life or existence. I think [Max] somehow understands that, and it probably makes him more compassionate – at the end of Mad Max 3, at least. That might be the difference; maybe he has compassion ultimately, in spite of doing all these sort of fairly brutal things. ... interview/